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publius
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 Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 11:00 am EDT Post subject: Mosque at ground zero. |
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It's not really a mosque, but, an Islamic Cultural Center.
I think they should build dozens of mosques in and around the ground-zero area.
It may keep the place from being attacked again in the future!!!!!!!!!!
Use your noggins, people. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 1:41 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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| publius wrote: | It's not really a mosque, but, an Islamic Cultural Center.
I think they should build dozens of mosques in and around the ground-zero area.
It may keep the place from being attacked again in the future!!!!!!!!!!
Use your noggins, people. |
Actually it's a "Community Center" not a Cultural Center. A Cultural Center is a place where people go to learn about and experience a particular culture. This is a place with a gym, community pool, classrooms, meeting rooms for general use, a wedding chapel for general use, etc, etc. that has as a subset of one floor an Islamic prayer room (thus earning the "Mosque" label by detractors).
And, BTW, as the NYT just pointed out yesterday -- though it was obvious to anyone who has spent time downtown -- there already numerous Mosques equivilent distances from the WTC site as this proposed Community Center. So objecting on the basis that it is too near Ground Zero is interesting. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 3:04 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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| Guest wrote: | | publius wrote: | It's not really a mosque, but, an Islamic Cultural Center.
I think they should build dozens of mosques in and around the ground-zero area.
It may keep the place from being attacked again in the future!!!!!!!!!!
Use your noggins, people. |
Actually it's a "Community Center" not a Cultural Center. A Cultural Center is a place where people go to learn about and experience a particular culture. This is a place with a gym, community pool, classrooms, meeting rooms for general use, a wedding chapel for general use, etc, etc. that has as a subset of one floor an Islamic prayer room (thus earning the "Mosque" label by detractors).
And, BTW, as the NYT just pointed out yesterday -- though it was obvious to anyone who has spent time downtown -- there already numerous Mosques equivilent distances from the WTC site as this proposed Community Center. So objecting on the basis that it is too near Ground Zero is interesting. |
Thanks for the witty punchline! |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 18 2010, 6:23 am EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble...
Seems pretty clear to me. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 18 2010, 7:34 am EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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| Guest wrote: | Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble...
Seems pretty clear to me. |
The issue is one of respect as well. We have a number of residents who were personally affected by the events of 9/11. Simply because one has a legal ability to do something does not mean they should do something. Even one Iman who I won't name, but is very close to Cranbury said I have never seen a Mosque with a swimming pool and gym. So there is even concern about this among the Islamic community and what this represents. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 18 2010, 10:53 am EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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| Guest wrote: | | Guest wrote: | Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble...
Seems pretty clear to me. |
The issue is one of respect as well. We have a number of residents who were personally affected by the events of 9/11. Simply because one has a legal ability to do something does not mean they should do something. Even one Iman who I won't name, but is very close to Cranbury said I have never seen a Mosque with a swimming pool and gym. So there is even concern about this among the Islamic community and what this represents. |
Perhaps the local Iman's confusion is he hasn’t read much about the project and is confused about the label "mosque" that the detractors gave it. This is a "community center" (specifically models after the YMCA) that is 10 stories tall and all but part of one floor is not specific to any religious denomination (but for the fact that the developers are Muslims). On a subset of one floor is an Islamic prayer room. Such an arrangement, of having prayer rooms in buildings with other purposes, is very common.
How is it disrespectful for a Muslim to build a community center that has an Islamic prayer room several blocks from the WTC site? Since the developers had nothing to do with the terrible terrorist actions and since Muslims in general are not collectively responsible for it, and since the actions were not done at the behest of some official Islamic authority, this project has nothing to do with 9/11, unless you succumb to the idea a billion Muslims share responsibility for it. And to say it is simply about “respect” implies that all Muslims have some responsibility to acknowledge that the intense feelings surrounding 9/11 justify the bigotry of associating them with the terrorists who committed these crimes when absolutely no such association exists. It is no different than saying every African American should accept someone being racist toward them because their relative was murdered by a black man and take special steps to “respect” their feelings and steer clear of any action that offends them.
Also, since there are already plenty of true mosque’s within the equivalent distance of the WTC site, what is unique about this one? The answer is nothing, until a party with an economic (not ideological) interest in preventing the development (there are always people opposed to any development) seized on this angle to create a groundswell against it by people not well informed of the facts. Prior to that this project had the broad support of the local community, local churches and synagogues, a local group of 9/11 families, and most City and State officials – it still does, but they are just drowned out by polls and arm chair pundits who believe they understand the issue despite having no direct contact with the developers or community members most directed affected by it.
I have nothing but respect for the families of the victims of 9/11 and know some personally. But I don’t see the connection between the monsters responsible for that atrocity and this project, any more than I hold Jews collectively responsible for killing Christ or Christians collectively responsible for all the wars, murders or terrorists actions committed over the years by members of their denominations. Besides, thankfully not all relatives of victims have succumbed to this confusion. Those I have spoken with do not associate this project or all Muslims with the terrorists and are not offended by the project. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 18 2010, 3:23 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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I stayed out of this discussion because I did not see how it related to Cranbury. The connection I can make is the use of both political parties of essentially local or community decisions to make a political point. The community board 1 signed off on this project. Believe me when I tell you this is an indication it had support of the neighborhood. The community boards in Manhattan are notorious for stopping projects. While CB1 is considered much more reasonable than CB3, I am sure they would have strongly come out against this project.
If the people in Tribeca are fine with an Islamic community center being built in their neighborhood, I really don't care what Newt Gingrich thinks. Likewise, I don't what national politicians telling us what we can or cannot build in Cranbury. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 18 2010, 10:28 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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| Seems like I really stirred the pot on this one! |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu, Aug 19 2010, 7:45 am EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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Funny that it is members of both parties who share concerns. I wonder at what point the idea of respect or concern goes away. The Catholic church planned a convent near Auschwitz, but then moved it because of respect for the area.
I have no issue with a small mosque. A 10 story cultural and community center at that point is what I have a concern with simply from a respect standpoint. However, from the attitude on this board it seems respect is going away with a I'll do what I want attitude.
If they want to build a 10, 20, 30 or even 100 story center in mid-town I have no issue at all. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu, Aug 19 2010, 9:42 am EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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| Guest wrote: | | I wonder at what point the idea of respect or concern goes away. I have no issue with a small mosque. A 10 story cultural and community center at that point is what I have a concern with simply from a respect standpoint. However, from the attitude on this board it seems respect is going away with a I'll do what I want attitude. If they want to build a 10, 20, 30 or even 100 story center in mid-town I have no issue at all. |
I find the comments above to be disrespectful of muslims and as well as the US constitution and all the people who've defended it with their lives. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu, Aug 19 2010, 10:51 am EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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| Again other than making arguments for local control of zoning, I don't see how this really relates to Cranbury. As previously stated, I believe the nationalization of local issues benefits no one except political extremists of both stripes. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu, Aug 19 2010, 11:56 am EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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The Constitution only makes provisions for the GOVERNMENT in not prohibiting the free expression of religion. It says NOTHING about private citizens doing so.
If I own a building and I want to rent it, I can keep from renting it to someone if I don't like the cut of their jib. That includes their religious beliefs if I deem them not suitable. There may be a law against it, but, you can skirt around that. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu, Aug 19 2010, 11:57 am EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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Anyway, how do you decide how far away from someplace is far away enough?
Who decides that? |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu, Aug 19 2010, 1:42 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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| Guest wrote: | The Constitution only makes provisions for the GOVERNMENT in not prohibiting the free expression of religion. It says NOTHING about private citizens doing so.
If I own a building and I want to rent it, I can keep from renting it to someone if I don't like the cut of their jib. That includes their religious beliefs if I deem them not suitable. There may be a law against it, but, you can skirt around that. |
What has this got to do with this case? In this case the owners of the site already are the ones trying to build this center and the local community boards and planning boards want it built. The only groups opposed are outsiders who want the government to take extraordinary measures to block the owners from developing it. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu, Aug 19 2010, 2:03 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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| Guest wrote: | Funny that it is members of both parties who share concerns. I wonder at what point the idea of respect or concern goes away. The Catholic church planned a convent near Auschwitz, but then moved it because of respect for the area.
I have no issue with a small mosque. A 10 story cultural and community center at that point is what I have a concern with simply from a respect standpoint. However, from the attitude on this board it seems respect is going away with a I'll do what I want attitude.
If they want to build a 10, 20, 30 or even 100 story center in mid-town I have no issue at all. |
I disagree, because you still haven't explained why it is disrespectful. Who is it disrespectful to and why? Why would the family members of a victim of 9/11 consider it disrespectful for a Muslim developer to build on the site or to include an Islamic prayer room in the otherwise non-religion-related plans? Neither have anything to do with the al Qaeda terrorists who committed the atrocities.
Also, your statement about not being offended if it were a “small Mosque” don’t make sense. This is less than a small Mosque – it is a single small prayer room. That’s why it’s not called a Mosque, because it isn’t one. So by your own logic, you should have “no problem” with it. The rest of the 10 story development is unrelated – it is event space for the entire community, regardless of religion with no overt religious overtones, just like I don’t feel hit over the head with the Christian affiliation of a YMCA. That’s why the community supports the project – because it is filling a need for service space with classrooms, a wedding chapel, a community pool, a gym, a daycare center, etc. How are any of those things offensive? |
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Rahim
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| Posted: Sun, Aug 22 2010, 1:53 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Mosque at ground zero. |
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Anyway, how do you decide how far away from someplace is far away enough? Who decides that?
The building we're talking about was hit by the landing gear of the jet flown into the world Trade Center. How about not that close? How about a yard away for every American killed on 9/11/2001? That would seem about right. |
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