Tax Payer Fund New Library
Post new topic   Reply to topic    [http://cranbury.info] -> News | Events
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
anon-54r5
Guest





PostPosted: Sat, Feb 11 2017, 6:51 pm EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

anon-s053 wrote:
anon-q2q6 wrote:
anon-1275-s990 wrote:
Wow, this thread is really fanning the flames. ANY GROUP can reserve the library for public meetings. The library and the foundation are NOT affiliated with the INDIVISIBLE CRANBURY group. The new library building is NOT funded with taxpayer funds; it is funded with 100% private funds. The Township Government is building a parking lot next to the new building at the request of the downtown business association.


The library can not claim 100% private funds. A huge chunk of the money was diverted from the library operating budget, as opposed to raised by private donations. The parking lot, the paid professionals and the time spent by paid library staff toward this initiative were also not free, or privately funded.

If they build it, we will have a free standing library with roughly the same amount of library space, a larger carbon footprint, a less convenient and less safe option for kids after school and a lifetime of the librarians hitting us up for extra cash to pay for the building they swore wouldn't cost us more money. Yay!


One other indirect source of taxpayer funding is the tax deductions made by donations. If 3.25 million was donated, at an assumed incremental rate of 33%, that is another million dollars in lost taxpayer money.


It would not be a tax credit, so the benefit is not as great. And even as someone not in favor of the library, I'd rather see us get a benefit than my dollars go to DC like they do today and we get no benefit. Cranbury gets no federal funding for roads or major items. So DC like Trenton is just a drain of our taxes.
Back to top
anon-05pn
Guest





PostPosted: Mon, Feb 13 2017, 10:15 pm EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

anon-10r2 wrote:
hate language


Scott: I think there's a misunderstanding here. I am a member of the group and I just reviewed its Mission Statement on FB. What part of it is "hate language"? For your convenience, below is the entire mission statement. It is clearly a political group with an unmistakable political stance, but there's nothing in it that advocates hate. In fact, the group is advocating positive political action through legislation. Very American, it seems to me. Thus, the library is an appropriate place to meet and, if the local Tea Party wanted to meet there, I'm sure it would be welcome, too. Political groups use libraries all the time. That's one of the things libraries are for.

BTW, I'm a Republican and a member of Indivisible Cranbury because I believe in inclusion, tolerance, fairness and stewardship of the environment. I also think Trump is a disaster for all Americans, including us Republicans. My participation as a member of Indivisible has not been a problem and the founder is a loyal, patriotic American. So absolutely, the library is a good place for Indivisible to meet. And Republicans / Tea Party members can meet in the Library, too.

So, anyway, here's the mission statement.

"We are a patriotic political group that promotes inclusion, tolerance, fairness, and stewardship for our environment through legislation. We will encourage determined, public, vocal, non-violent actions that oppose policies, appointments, and legislation propounded by the Trump administration, the NJ governor, or federal, state, or local legislatures that impinge upon these principals, and we will advocate in favor of policies, appointments, and legislation that support them. We are an inclusive group and welcome members regardless of ethnicity, national origin, religion, gender orientation, and political affiliation. In our diversity, we are united by a common abhorrence for what is currently perceived as The Trump Agenda."
Back to top
anon-s6p5
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 7:21 am EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

anon-05pn wrote:
anon-10r2 wrote:
hate language


Scott: I think there's a misunderstanding here. I am a member of the group and I just reviewed its Mission Statement on FB. What part of it is "hate language"? For your convenience, below is the entire mission statement. It is clearly a political group with an unmistakable political stance, but there's nothing in it that advocates hate. In fact, the group is advocating positive political action through legislation. Very American, it seems to me. Thus, the library is an appropriate place to meet and, if the local Tea Party wanted to meet there, I'm sure it would be welcome, too. Political groups use libraries all the time. That's one of the things libraries are for.

BTW, I'm a Republican and a member of Indivisible Cranbury because I believe in inclusion, tolerance, fairness and stewardship of the environment. I also think Trump is a disaster for all Americans, including us Republicans. My participation as a member of Indivisible has not been a problem and the founder is a loyal, patriotic American. So absolutely, the library is a good place for Indivisible to meet. And Republicans / Tea Party members can meet in the Library, too.

So, anyway, here's the mission statement.

"We are a patriotic political group that promotes inclusion, tolerance, fairness, and stewardship for our environment through legislation. We will encourage determined, public, vocal, non-violent actions that oppose policies, appointments, and legislation propounded by the Trump administration, the NJ governor, or federal, state, or local legislatures that impinge upon these principals, and we will advocate in favor of policies, appointments, and legislation that support them. We are an inclusive group and welcome members regardless of ethnicity, national origin, religion, gender orientation, and political affiliation. In our diversity, we are united by a common abhorrence for what is currently perceived as The Trump Agenda."


Look at the link with the indivsible guide. The guide for indivisible is filled with hate language. ThebCranbury mission statement is benign, but the broader group is not. Also, if you read some mainstream news indivisible groups are linked with some rather radical groups.

My point is that maybe indivisible Cranbury would be better as a unique chapter without the name indivisble. As the broader indivisible group nationally is not benign.
Back to top
JamesF



Joined: Mon, Feb 13 2017, 10:34 pm EST
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 8:18 am EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

Thank you, Scott:

Then we are in agreement that the Indivisible Cranbury group is not a hate group. Can we also agree that its use of the library was appropriate?

My concern here is that you stated that you are withholding your pledge to the library until you got clarity and I want to make sure that we are not holding you back. The school needs the space occupied by the library and the library needs more space for its purpose (anyone who attended the NASA event last Friday could see the library needs a bigger space! (pun intended)). If you are still uncertain, let me know. Otherwise, I'd encourage you to send your check!

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anon-s6p5
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 8:47 am EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

JamesF wrote:
Thank you, Scott:

Then we are in agreement that the Indivisible Cranbury group is not a hate group. Can we also agree that its use of the library was appropriate?

My concern here is that you stated that you are withholding your pledge to the library until you got clarity and I want to make sure that we are not holding you back. The school needs the space occupied by the library and the library needs more space for its purpose (anyone who attended the NASA event last Friday could see the library needs a bigger space! (pun intended)). If you are still uncertain, let me know. Otherwise, I'd encourage you to send your check!

James


Hi James,

First, I want to be clear that I do not believe that Indivisble Cranbury is a hate group an extreme group like the tea party yes, but not a hate group.

However, I also cannot say how far you go to link to the national group either. I am not going to troll as the other poster, but absent any data (your site is closed so how can I see your postings are benign) I have to trust my instincts that the group is fine based on the people Ink ow who joined. Which is why I suggested your group not associate with the indivisible nationally if it does become even more extreme or turn toward the hate group level (given their language and affiliations nationally it is possible) then many Cranbury people will receive bad reputations. Further, your problem is by associating your supporting that groups language. Rebranding as Cranbury Together /united or something would serve you better.

My concern about the library is that I see two issues. One is the library board and it's members must do what they can to ensure the library remains apolitical. I am fine with the library opening just space, but if the library takes different positions or uses it beyond a meeting I have a concern. The Preside t came on here and made a post about the group and space. That concerned me because it stepped beyond the role of a library.

Look at colleges today where people are told what they can or cannot say in commencement speeches. Or look at how people reacted to Steve Martin and Carrie Fisher. Institutions are blocking free speech and comments that are being made positively are leading protests. We are telling Catholic convents that they must supply contraception cover despite their beliefs when the liberal belief in the past was to respect religion. Society has left the classic liberal norms to adopt a Socialist Stalin type mentality and that is dangerous.

That is why I will never join indivisible Cranbury, because the people I do know in your group share similar views that worry me. A library supporting those positions endangers all.

That stated, Indivisible is not holding me back, it is the library holding me back. I fully support your right as a group to meet, discuss and raise your positions.

As an FYI, I do not believe the schools needs the space. Enrollment is substantially dropping and there is no new major residential impacts on the horizon that will raise enrollment beyond the peak levels.

I was supporting it more for the community aspect.

Scott
Back to top
anon-po61
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 10:08 am EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

Hi Scott,
This is what the President of the Library Board said:
Quote:
This is what a community library can be - a platform for ideas and getting together and listening to each other. All local groups are encouraged to meet in the public library.

I am not sure where you are getting your idea that the library is backing one political group or one side. She specially said that the library is open to all groups and it is a great place to have discussions.
Back to top
anon-p951
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 10:17 am EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

Also, Scott, of course, you can decide to not donate money to the foundation. That is your right. However, saying that you are withholding giving money to the foundation because you oppose a free exchange of information and ideas is censorship.

Even though I do not like this forum for what it seems to bring out in people, I do support our right to express ourselves - freedom of speech.

p.s. The school will have a proper, better media center which they lack now.
Back to top
anon-p951
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 10:18 am EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

And exactly, we need to support the library for the community aspects. I think it would be great to meet face to face to have these discussions.
Back to top
anon-50ro
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 10:31 am EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

anon-po61 wrote:
Hi Scott,
This is what the President of the Library Board said:
Quote:
This is what a community library can be - a platform for ideas and getting together and listening to each other. All local groups are encouraged to meet in the public library.

I am not sure where you are getting your idea that the library is backing one political group or one side. She specially said that the library is open to all groups and it is a great place to have discussions.


That was not the post I was referring too.
Back to top
anon-50ro
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 10:36 am EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

anon-p951 wrote:
Also, Scott, of course, you can decide to not donate money to the foundation. That is your right. However, saying that you are withholding giving money to the foundation because you oppose a free exchange of information and ideas is censorship.

Even though I do not like this forum for what it seems to bring out in people, I do support our right to express ourselves - freedom of speech.

p.s. The school will have a proper, better media center which they lack now.


I am withholding support until I can ensure there is a free exchange of thought. That the library foundation is not acting like many colleges and some in Indivisible Cranbury would have.

The president made a comment specifically about the group. I want to ensure the foundation is truly backing all speech. If they are then my money goes back.

Had the President not made a statement I would have no concern.
Back to top
anon-50ro
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 10:55 am EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

anon-ppq7 wrote:
From the pledge of allegiance:…” indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
These groups advocate being involved in politics - our community, our state, our nation. They are comprised of Democrats, Republican, Independents, Green Party, Unaffiliated. One lesson we all have learned in the past few months is that we need to be involved citizens – be educated, learn how to participate, share ideas. I welcome conversations. I look outside my comfort circle and want to engage in new ideas. I see the library as the perfect spot for these conversations, and all groups to meet.

This is what community library can be - a platform for ideas and getting together and listening to each other. All local groups are encouraged to meet in the public library.
If this is an example of extremism, then you are right: I am an extremist.
Thank you for making my day.
Kirstie Venanzi


This is the full post I am referring too where Indivisible Cranbury language is cited and the she is a member of the group compounding the concern.

I am just doing my due diligence to ensure the library is apolitical.

There is also a huge difference between an individual offering funds or not holding funds for an organization and an institution dedicated to free speech and sharing of ideas censoring thought.

For example, I can choose to not have my kids put in a position where they hear someone (not Indivisible Cranbury to be clear) spewing hateful language. However, the constitution their right to hear it. When they are of college age I hope the professors will challenge their thoughts and make them uncomfortable. By being uncomfortable and having our thoughts challenged we learn.

When as in periods of times books are burned, colleges today censoring thought and so forth there are issues.

Again, if the library just cited their policy which I read that allows community groups to meet then no issue. It is sad that we have to question whether Libraries and Colleges will allow free expression. It goes against every liberal bone in my body.
Back to top
anon-15ps
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 10:56 am EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

The issue with Indivisible Cranbury is they are extremely secret which concerns people. I agree with the above poster, the national groups are certainly trending the way of hate. The fact that the Cranbury group is hiding not only their postings but their membership should be concerning to all. The Princeton chapter is open with both posts and membership. I am sure the members will say they don't want the trolls like this site gets however the great thing about facebook is they can hide the post if it is offensive but they just don't seem to want any kind of public comment or viewing. I believe this to be backed up by the poster who put up the membership of the group which was deleted with the request of one of the members of Indivisible Cranbury. I am sure that makes people quite suspicious of the intent of the group also.

Onto the library. What the library people do not want you to know is that each municipality is mandated to give a portion of the tax's to the library. In Cranbury's case the library has "pocketed" these funds for several years into a capital fund for the new library. What this tells me, and should tell all is that if they have that much money left over each year is that we do not need a new library. Just imagine what this library could have done with all that money, not sure what the exact amount is but it is my understanding it is over $500,000. This is almost criminal, our tax dollars that are required to be sent to the library is not used to help our kids each year. The above poster is also correct the enrollment over the last 5 years has trended down considerable and if you look at the forecast that the board of education puts out it is also forecast to be trending down. The mandate of a library should not be that it needs to be big enough to hold large group meetings so that excuse should be thrown right out.
Back to top
anon-50ro
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 10:58 am EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

And by the way to be clear I am not saying I will not donate. Just that I want to do my due diligence. If as I think this was just a badly worded post no issue.
Back to top
anon-3511
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 12:36 pm EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

I posted above under anon-15ps I also wanted to add to the posting but do not know how to go in to edit.

Let me be clear here, I am not saying that anyone in Cranbury fits into the below groups but If a hate group such as the KKK or Nazis were offering membership to a hidden group that hides their message and membership within Cranbury would there not be an outrage. The fact is there are groups within the indivisible groups that are using hate messages we should be concerned. Even if they do not have hate messages now, being affiliated with the organization that does can lead to that and members within the group should know that there are people concerned.

More thoughts on the Library, we have two kids in the high school and admit that neither my Husband or two kids use the Cranbury Library any longer we do use the Princeton Library. What I find interesting when we are there is that most people are sitting there using the computers. It is very rare to see people actually checking out books. I would like to know if there is a number that is offered publicly by the library how many books are checked out per day? I do remember when I would take the kids a few years ago into the library there always seemed to be 3 or 4 people sitting around not doing much. The joke between my husband and I was always how he does everything possible to run his company as efficient as possible and the amount of money being spent on labor at the Cranbury Library would never stand the test if it were a private company. There seems to be a lot of waste. Second the fund raising committee has come to us more than once "mentioning" that the would like to have us be a part of the library in the form of a pledge. Both occasions we have said we wish them the best with their efforts but are putting our resources elsewhere. Both times we left the conversations feeling like we were doing something wrong by not pledging. One person in particular was almost rude and heard from a friend who I trust said he made a snide comment they could afford to buy the library what is wrong with them giving something. This committee should understand that not everyone feels as passionate as they do and that should be okay.
Back to top
anon-n579
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 3:19 pm EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

Indivisible Cranbury does not want open discussion and cannot accept dissenting opinions. No matter what some members may claim, their mission is resistance, not discussion of different opinions. Indivisible Cranbury is aligned to the national resistance movement.

Posts on this board that were negative to Indivisible Cranbury were removed at the request of the Indivisible organizers. Is that free speech?

Some posters who had satirical comments were threatened with legal action. Is that acceptance of different ideas or bullying?

The threats are especially concerning because of the support of the town. The Mayor, David Cook and another committee member, Susan Goetz are members of Indivisible Cranbury.

Indivisible Cranbury’s Facebook discussion site is completely closed. What are they hiding?

The library is openly supporting Indivisible and offering the library for meeting space. Do we need more taxpayer money spent to increase library meeting space for the resistance movement? Does this make the library an accepting atmosphere for all residents including our children?

I wonder if this post will be deleted.
Back to top
anon-54r5
Guest





PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 3:54 pm EST    Post subject: Re: Tax Payer Fund New Library Reply with quote

anon-n579 wrote:
Indivisible Cranbury does not want open discussion and cannot accept dissenting opinions. No matter what some members may claim, their mission is resistance, not discussion of different opinions. Indivisible Cranbury is aligned to the national resistance movement.

Posts on this board that were negative to Indivisible Cranbury were removed at the request of the Indivisible organizers. Is that free speech?

Some posters who had satirical comments were threatened with legal action. Is that acceptance of different ideas or bullying?

The threats are especially concerning because of the support of the town. The Mayor, David Cook and another committee member, Susan Goetz are members of Indivisible Cranbury.

Indivisible Cranbury’s Facebook discussion site is completely closed. What are they hiding?

The library is openly supporting Indivisible and offering the library for meeting space. Do we need more taxpayer money spent to increase library meeting space for the resistance movement? Does this make the library an accepting atmosphere for all residents including our children?

I wonder if this post will be deleted.


To the poster above, having two TC members involved does not mean the group has the support of the town. The Cranbury Twp Committee has 5 members. It's like the supreme court.

Dave and Susan are fairly left leaning individuals. This should not be a surprise. But, they may not be active. Perhaps they were just added to the group.

Mr. Johnson isn't a listed member and he's been very pro-business for the town. I don't see him as an Indivisible person.

Dan Mulligan is a Republican. He's also taken on affordable housing vocally. So I highly doubt he is going to join a far left group.

Jay Taylor has been straight middle of the road. Considering he's in the Fire Co. a traditionally conservative field like police. I doubt he's going too suddenly go far left.

All three who did not join have fairly strong personalities if you read the meeting minutes so I can't see any one of them rushing to join this group.

So that is 3 members a majority of the TC and therefore not sure you can say the TC supports this group. At best you can say 2 support and 3 are indifferent.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    [http://cranbury.info] -> News | Events All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 5 of 6