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anon-5r20
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PostPosted: Tue, Aug 15 2017, 1:35 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

Glad the tc is not giving more $. The library rounded up their tropps in a Pre-planned effort. There was no notification of the general public on a hearing. The agenda was listen to the bids, period. For some not in favor of the library hey would not know to attend. The only ones who may know are the 1 or 3 on this board as previously stated in a message and those regular tc meeting attendees (as quoted by ms Goetz) who can interpret a confusing agenda. I hope this issue is now dead but if not they should be adequate notice for a public hearing and better yet a vote.
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anon-4502
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PostPosted: Tue, Aug 15 2017, 3:44 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

anon-5r20 wrote:
The only ones who may know are the 1 or 3 on this board as previously stated in a message and those regular tc meeting attendees (as quoted by ms Goetz) who can interpret a confusing agenda. I hope this issue is now dead but if not they should be adequate notice for a public hearing and better yet a vote.


Agenda as posted online...

On page 2 it states

Cranbury Library Report on new Library
Ms. Kirstie Venanzi, President, Cranbury Public Library Board of
Trustees will give the Township Committee and public an update on
the recent bid process for the new library.

and further down it says

Public Comment

http://www.cranburytownship.org/TC-Documents/2017/TC-agenda-081417.pdf

I am not sure what is so hard to understand...
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anon-2424
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PostPosted: Tue, Aug 15 2017, 4:40 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

anon-po3o wrote:
1 million, 500,000.00 - so many different numbers being thrown around. I was at the meeting and I heard both $400,000.00 and $200,000.00.


The lowest bid was $3.1M. The library says they have $2.6M, including donations, pledges and re-appropriated library budget. That's a $500k gap. Plus $400k to move in. Plus another $100k for the site plan/parking which equals at least $1 Million.

Incidentally, 5% is a ridiculously low construction contingency, particularly when you consider the library's estimated costs are already proving to be 20% too low. For example, the site plan should have been in the library's original estimate, so when the township assumed this cost, the library's original estimated costs should have had plenty of cushion. Presumably, they thought so too when they put out for bids with less money than they originally estimated they would need. Also, the library estimate the site plan at $475k and now it is already $565k before a shovel hits the ground. That's about 20% low. If you apply the same percent to the construction costs, the library needs a 20% contingency, which increases the gap by another $450k.

In all seriousness, what is going to happen if we start a construction project with a $1.0M - $1.5M gap? Who do you think is going to cover the costs?

Let's be honest, aside from a last minute "hero" donor, the best bet for a new library is the state funding on the ballot this November.
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anon-s6p5
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PostPosted: Tue, Aug 15 2017, 6:41 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

Where are you getting 400k in move in costs?

The Tc said last night that the town engineer reviewed everything and that the 5% was appropriate for a project this size.

Your other points are spot on.
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anon-p104
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PostPosted: Tue, Aug 15 2017, 7:09 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

Since the new library is not likely to go forward, does anyone know if it is possible for donors to get their money returned?
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anon-0341
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PostPosted: Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:28 am EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

anon-p104 wrote:
Since the new library is not likely to go forward, does anyone know if it is possible for donors to get their money returned?


Anyone dumb enough to give Money to that scam deserves to lose all of their money!!
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anon-0341
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PostPosted: Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:36 am EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

anon-2424 wrote:
anon-po3o wrote:
1 million, 500,000.00 - so many different numbers being thrown around. I was at the meeting and I heard both $400,000.00 and $200,000.00.


The lowest bid was $3.1M. The library says they have $2.6M, including donations, pledges and re-appropriated library budget. That's a $500k gap. Plus $400k to move in. Plus another $100k for the site plan/parking which equals at least $1 Million.

Incidentally, 5% is a ridiculously low construction contingency, particularly when you consider the library's estimated costs are already proving to be 20% too low. For example, the site plan should have been in the library's original estimate, so when the township assumed this cost, the library's original estimated costs should have had plenty of cushion. Presumably, they thought so too when they put out for bids with less money than they originally estimated they would need. Also, the library estimate the site plan at $475k and now it is already $565k before a shovel hits the ground. That's about 20% low. If you apply the same percent to the construction costs, the library needs a 20% contingency, which increases the gap by another $450k.

In all seriousness, what is going to happen if we start a construction project with a $1.0M - $1.5M gap? Who do you think is going to cover the costs? Remember th community center in west Windsor? Everyone who donated money to that boondoggle lost everything. Come to your senses Cranbury and dump this hideous idea before your hard time arb d money goes up in smoke. This is the age of digital
Media and Cranburians can afford their own entertainment, we do not need or want another vacant expensive unnecessary irresponsible pipe dream idea that soaks the tax payer. RESIST has spoken!

Let's be honest, aside from a last minute "hero" donor, the best bet for a new library is the state funding on the ballot this November.
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anon-0341
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PostPosted: Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:42 am EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

anon-0341 wrote:
anon-2424 wrote:
anon-po3o wrote:
1 million, 500,000.00 - so many different numbers being thrown around. I was at the meeting and I heard both $400,000.00 and $200,000.00.


The lowest bid was $3.1M. The library says they have $2.6M, including donations, pledges and re-appropriated library budget. That's a $500k gap. Plus $400k to move in. Plus another $100k for the site plan/parking which equals at least $1 Million.

Incidentally, 5% is a ridiculously low construction contingency, particularly when you consider the library's estimated costs are already proving to be 20% too low. For example, the site plan should have been in the library's original estimate, so when the township assumed this cost, the library's original estimated costs should have had plenty of cushion. Presumably, they thought so too when they put out for bids with less money than they originally estimated they would need. Also, the library estimate the site plan at $475k and now it is already $565k before a shovel hits the ground. That's about 20% low. If you apply the same percent to the construction costs, the library needs a 20% contingency, which increases the gap by another $450k.

In all seriousness, what is going to happen if we start a construction project with a $1.0M - $1.5M gap? Who do you think is going to cover the costs? Remember the community center in west Windsor? Everyone who donated money to that boondoggle lost everything. Come to your senses Cranbury and dump this hideous idea before your hard time and money goes up in smoke. This is the age of digital
Media and Cranburians can afford their own entertainment, we do not need or want another vacant expensive unnecessary irresponsible pipe dream idea that soaks the tax payer. RESIST has spoken!

Let's be honest, aside from a last minute "hero" donor, the best bet for a new library is the state funding on the ballot this November.
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anon-0341
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PostPosted: Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:43 am EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

anon-2424 wrote:
anon-po3o wrote:
1 million, 500,000.00 - so many different numbers being thrown around. I was at the meeting and I heard both $400,000.00 and $200,000.00.


The lowest bid was $3.1M. The library says they have $2.6M, including donations, pledges and re-appropriated library budget. That's a $500k gap. Plus $400k to move in. Plus another $100k for the site plan/parking which equals at least $1 Million.

Incidentally, 5% is a ridiculously low construction contingency, particularly when you consider the library's estimated costs are already proving to be 20% too low. For example, the site plan should have been in the library's original estimate, so when the township assumed this cost, the library's original estimated costs should have had plenty of cushion. Presumably, they thought so too when they put out for bids with less money than they originally estimated they would need. Also, the library estimate the site plan at $475k and now it is already $565k before a shovel hits the ground. That's about 20% low. If you apply the same percent to the construction costs, the library needs a 20% contingency, which increases the gap by another $450k.

In all seriousness, what is going to happen if we start a construction project with a $1.0M - $1.5M gap? Who do you think is going to cover the costs? Remember th community center in west Windsor? Everyone who donated money to that boondoggle lost everything. Come to your senses Cranbury and dump this hideous idea before your hard time arb d money goes up in smoke. This is the age of digital
Media and Cranburians can afford their own entertainment, we do not need or want another vacant expensive unnecessary irresponsible pipe dream idea that soaks the tax payer. RESIST has spoken!

Let's be honest, aside from a last minute "hero" donor, the best bet for a new library is the state funding on the ballot this November.
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anon-0341
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PostPosted: Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:44 am EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

anon-2424 wrote:
anon-po3o wrote:
1 million, 500,000.00 - so many different numbers being thrown around. I was at the meeting and I heard both $400,000.00 and $200,000.00.


The lowest bid was $3.1M. The library says they have $2.6M, including donations, pledges and re-appropriated library budget. That's a $500k gap. Plus $400k to move in. Plus another $100k for the site plan/parking which equals at least $1 Million.

Incidentally, 5% is a ridiculously low construction contingency, particularly when you consider the library's estimated costs are already proving to be 20% too low. For example, the site plan should have been in the library's original estimate, so when the township assumed this cost, the library's original estimated costs should have had plenty of cushion. Presumably, they thought so too when they put out for bids with less money than they originally estimated they would need. Also, the library estimate the site plan at $475k and now it is already $565k before a shovel hits the ground. That's about 20% low. If you apply the same percent to the construction costs, the library needs a 20% contingency, which increases the gap by another $450k.

In all seriousness, what is going to happen if we start a construction project with a $1.0M - $1.5M gap? Who do you think is going to cover the costs? Remember th community center in west Windsor? Everyone who donated money to that boondoggle lost everything. Come to your senses Cranbury and dump this hideous idea before your hard time arb d money goes up in smoke. This is the age of digital
Media and Cranburians can afford their own entertainment, we do not need or want another vacant expensive unnecessary irresponsible pipe dream idea that soaks the tax payer. RESIST has spoken!

Let's be honest, aside from a last minute "hero" donor, the best bet for a new library is the state funding on the ballot this November.
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anon-0341
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PostPosted: Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:53 am EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

anon-s6p5 wrote:
anon-0493 wrote:
anon-9o03 wrote:
I heard today that the library does not have enough money to cover the cost of the building and will be coming to the TC to discuss. I do not know what the library will ask for or want to discuss.

The library will be going to the August 14th TC meeting at 7pm and is asking supporters to attend. If you want to voice your view pro or con then this is the meeting to attend.

A lot of seemingly opposed posters are here so this is your notice. Show up now or remain silent.

A lot of seemingly pro library people are here so this is your notice.

If antilibrary people do not show up then you can't complain here later that things are being discussed without your knowledge.


What are you saying? Do you really think there is still time to protest the new library? Don't wag your finger at us. It's too far along in the process, and it's pretty futile to complain about it now. The library will wait until they raise the extra $400,000 and then all the contributors will get their names published for posterity, and all those who didn't contribute probably won't be allowed in! Maybe TC will just feel compelled to make us all pay for it anyway. My opinion is still that there is no real need for a 3+ million dollar library in this small town, just like we don't need the new strip mall either, but hey we're going to get it whether we want it or not.


My point is if you want to be heard go. People complain decisions are made without the opportunity to speak. Go to the meeting now. It is a few weeks away so plenty of time to schedule.

If you don't go and the library presses the TC to fund then you are there to oppose it.

If people complain and then never go to a TC meeting and voice an opinion they lose all credibility.


The anti library people who happen to be the majority will have the last laugh when these scam artists won't have their names on the wall. A town of 3000 does not need nor want a Taj Mahal library to be empty like the one we already have. How come it's never busy? Why isn't the library open Sunday? Why are the only people in there kids waiting to be picked up after school or camp? Put this joke to a vote and it goes down faster than a slice of pizza in christie's hands. Resist the madness.
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anon;oqs8-np85
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PostPosted: Wed, Aug 16 2017, 9:23 am EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

The unfortunate reality is that the Library Board can wait for years and years for their Library Tax Proceeds to build up and at some time have the dollars they need to build this monument. The very bad thing for the people who do in fact use the library, is that the services will be curtailed as they are now, so that they can build their nestegg on the backs of the rest of the taxpayers!!! Shame Shame Shame!!!
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anon-1q5s
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PostPosted: Wed, Aug 16 2017, 1:31 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

anon;oqs8-np85 wrote:
The unfortunate reality is that the Library Board can wait for years and years for their Library Tax Proceeds to build up and at some time have the dollars they need to build this monument. The very bad thing for the people who do in fact use the library, is that the services will be curtailed as they are now, so that they can build their nestegg on the backs of the rest of the taxpayers!!! Shame Shame Shame!!!


You don't have to worry about that any time soon. The library is not good at managing their expenses. If they had taken steps when fundraising started 7 years ago to control their payroll they would already have the money they need. The fact is, if they were good at managing money, they would understand that a building is a major financial liability and would have little interest in breaking their lease with the school.
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anon-01sq
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PostPosted: Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:34 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

5% contingency after you have fully bid construction documents and are contracting is not too low. It's pretty common. Remember, the subs will be on the hook for costs other than those that are a result of design error or client change orders. I've said for years to expect a big cost increase when they went to bid, so I'm not surprised by 20% there, but you can't compare design phase variance and contingency with construction phase.
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sbnewsman1



Joined: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 11:21 pm EDT
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Wed, Aug 16 2017, 11:36 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

https://youtu.be/5557Z9zrpJs

Video from the meeting.
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anon-4502
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PostPosted: Thu, Aug 17 2017, 3:52 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Library Reply with quote

anon-2424 wrote:
anon-po3o wrote:
1 million, 500,000.00 - so many different numbers being thrown around. I was at the meeting and I heard both $400,000.00 and $200,000.00.


The lowest bid was $3.1M. The library says they have $2.6M, including donations, pledges and re-appropriated library budget. That's a $500k gap. Plus $400k to move in. Plus another $100k for the site plan/parking which equals at least $1 Million.

Incidentally, 5% is a ridiculously low construction contingency, particularly when you consider the library's estimated costs are already proving to be 20% too low. For example, the site plan should have been in the library's original estimate, so when the township assumed this cost, the library's original estimated costs should have had plenty of cushion. Presumably, they thought so too when they put out for bids with less money than they originally estimated they would need. Also, the library estimate the site plan at $475k and now it is already $565k before a shovel hits the ground. That's about 20% low. If you apply the same percent to the construction costs, the library needs a 20% contingency, which increases the gap by another $450k.

In all seriousness, what is going to happen if we start a construction project with a $1.0M - $1.5M gap? Who do you think is going to cover the costs?

Let's be honest, aside from a last minute "hero" donor, the best bet for a new library is the state funding on the ballot this November.


1.0-1.5 million dollar gap is surely a low number. I recently heard we need at least another 45 million for this project, and the township has agreed to donate a 60 acre parcel in the middle of the town to make sure adequate parking is available.
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