Cranbury Forum | Bulletin | Info Sharing
[Click here to bookmark this page: http://cranbury.info]
▪
Cranbury School
▪
Cranbury Township
▪
Cranbury Library
▪
Cranbury.org
▪
Cranburyhistory.org
(Press Ctrl and = keys to increase font size)
Search
Register (optional)
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
[http://cranbury.info]
->
News | Events
Post a reply
Username
Subject
Message body
Emoticons
Font colour:
Default
Dark Red
Red
Orange
Brown
Yellow
Green
Olive
Cyan
Blue
Dark Blue
Indigo
Violet
White
Black
Font size:
Tiny
Small
Normal
Large
Huge
Close Tags
[quote="Guest"][quote="Guest"][quote="Guest"]What if I want to marry my sister?[/quote] The state outlawing you marrying your sister is not legal discrimination because "sisters" are not a recognized class or group in our society. Someone can be a sister but "sisters" are not a class. Race, gender, religion, age, sexual orientation, people with disabilities are recognized classes that are entitled to protection against discrimination. The better and more common example is the State outlawing polygamist marriage. Putting aside marriages to minors which where the State's obligation to protect the welfare of them minor supersedes protection of religious freedom (and our Constitution is clear that your individual rights end when they trample on another's), preventing plural marriage between 3 or more consenting adults for religious reasons could arguably classified as discrimination on the basis of their religion. However, the state has defined marriage as between two people. Since a third person is not a legal "class or group" it can't be discriminated against. What becomes discrimination is saying marriage is between two people but not certain kinds of people. It is not discrimination to say marriage is between 2 people versus 3 or 5 or 10. Again, this applies to the state's role in the institution. Whether the state has the right to prevent plural marriage recognition by a religion, with none of the benefits or distinctions of the legal status is an entirely different matter. From a legal and constitutional basis this whole problem is really the result of people using the state legal status of marriage to effectively become a club with special benefits conferred by the state. If people had left marriage a strictly religious institution we would have no problem here. A given religion can define what it constitutes as marriage and if two or more people want to be married they can shop for a religion that acknowledges their preferences or simply live together and consider themselves married (as many, many heterosexual couples did throughout history and in the early days of this country before there was state advantage to it and when religious recognition was not always practical, or at least had to be deferred often for years past having kids, etc.). Instead, we have created all kinds of state-sanctioned benefits to marriage from tax advantages to legal protections. Once we did this, we created a basis for discrimination and an issue of separation of church and state if we were going to narrowly define the benefits the state was rewarding only only the basis of certain religion's definition of marriage. There are three ways out of this. Stop conferring the state benefits to the institution or don't discriminate. Or, three, rip up the constitution and throw a couple of the core values our country was built on out the window. I prefer one of the first two. As a married person who enjoys the state-sanctioned benefits, I most prefer the second, stopping discrimination.[/quote] Thanks for your explanation, but I'm not looking for a better and more common example. My question is why can't I marry my sister? or Mother? Or Father? Or any other consenting adult. If marriage in the eyes of the government is not about sex or procreation and simply a contract between two consenting adults who love each other and want to enter a contract whereby they can access certain rights and privileges... why can't I marry my sister?[/quote]
Options
HTML is
ON
BBCode
is
ON
Smilies are
ON
Disable HTML in this post
Disable BBCode in this post
Disable Smilies in this post
All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Jump to:
Select a forum
Topics
----------------
News | Events
School | Parenting
Blogs by Cranbury Residents
Shopping | Good Deals | Price Talk
Home Sweet Home
House For Sale
Home Sales Pricing Records
Financial | Stocks | Mutual Funds
Cool Bytes & Bits
Garage Sale | ForSale Ads | Things to Trade
Tech Related (PC, Internet, HDTV, etc.)
Interesing and Fun Stuff to Share
What's Your Favorite?
Interests | Hobbies
Cranbury History
Radom Thoughts | Sports | Kitchen Sink
Amazon Deals
Local Business Info
----------------
Local Business Ads (FREE)
Support
----------------
Daily Sponsored Message & Amazon Ads
About Us | Your Privacy | Suggestion | Sponsored
Test Area (Practice your posting skills here)
Topic review
Author
Message
Guest
Posted: Mon, Aug 15 2011, 6:02 pm EDT
Post subject: Re: Bert and Ernie arent gay and wont get married
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44111195/ns/today-entertainment/
Damn that Elmo! He's such a homewrecker!
watch your language - there are many upstanding Christian straight people reading this
Bert & Ernie are not gay.
They just pretend to be a couple so that they can keep their rent controlled apartment on Sesame Street that they got together in 1970!
Guest
Posted: Mon, Aug 15 2011, 6:00 pm EDT
Post subject: Re: Plurality Of New Jersey Voters Thinks Gay Marriage Should Be Legal
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
What if I want to marry my sister?
Thats not gay.
Marrying your Brother.........................NOW THATS GAY!
I assumed it was a woman marrying her sister, silly me.
That was sexist of me.
Guest
Posted: Sat, Aug 13 2011, 11:50 am EDT
Post subject: Re: Bert and Ernie arent gay and wont get married
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44111195/ns/today-entertainment/
Damn that Elmo! He's such a homewrecker!
watch your language - there are many upstanding Christian straight people reading this
Guest
Posted: Fri, Aug 12 2011, 10:35 pm EDT
Post subject: Re: Bert and Ernie arent gay and wont get married
Guest wrote:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44111195/ns/today-entertainment/
Damn that Elmo! He's such a homewrecker!
Guest
Posted: Thu, Aug 11 2011, 10:42 pm EDT
Post subject: Re: Plurality Of New Jersey Voters Thinks Gay Marriage Should Be Legal
Bert and Ernie are icky.
Guest
Posted: Thu, Aug 11 2011, 9:58 pm EDT
Post subject: Bert and Ernie arent gay and wont get married
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44111195/ns/today-entertainment/
Guest
Posted: Wed, Aug 10 2011, 6:10 pm EDT
Post subject: Re: Plurality Of New Jersey Voters Thinks Gay Marriage Should Be Legal
Guest wrote:
Again you are confused. We find you icky.
Yeah! You're icky!
Guest
Posted: Wed, Aug 10 2011, 8:06 am EDT
Post subject: Re: Plurality Of New Jersey Voters Thinks Gay Marriage Should Be Legal
Again you are confused. We find you icky.
Guest
Posted: Wed, Aug 10 2011, 12:04 am EDT
Post subject: Re: Plurality Of New Jersey Voters Thinks Gay Marriage Should Be Legal
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Your question was already answered in the novel-length reply so why re-ask?
Because he thinks he is being provacative, instead of merely dim.
Actually, the question I asked wasn't answered. I did hope the question would be provocative, as in "thought provoking". If you argue that any two consenting adults in a loving committed relationship should be allowed to marry, what would preclude me from marrying my sister?
No one argued that "any two consenting adults in a loving committed relationship should be allowed to marry" except you. That had nothing to do with the basis for why the state should not prevent gay marriage which is about discrimination. Family members are not a recognized class that can be discriminated against so if the state wishes to prevent incest marriages it can without contradicting its laws. In fact, since most states outlaw incest entirely it would be a contradiction for it to allow incest marriages.
If you're trying to start a new topic about whether incest should be legal, go for it, but marriage between family members is completely unrelated to gay marriage which is what this topic was about.
I think you're missing the difference between the moral argument vs. the legal justification. I'm not debating your legal justification, but I think it ignores the larger moral debate; which is important because laws tend to change as morality changes (See Lawrence v. Texas, 2003). Regarding the moral debate...
Opponents of gay marriage have argued that the purpose of marriage is to foster a stable family unit for the purposes of procreation and child rearing and that is why marriage should be limited to one man and one woman.
Proponents of gay marriage have argued that marriage is not necessarily about procreation and child rearing (both of which are essentially available to homosexuals anyway); rather marriage is a loving, committed relationship between two consenting adults, regardless of sexual orientation.
What I find interesting is that many of the social liberals who are so quick to dismiss the morality of social conservatives on issue of gay marriage as over-reaching and imposing, have no problem imposing their own morality on someone who wants to marry their sister, or brother, or father, or mother.
What is it to you? Why should you get to decide who can and can't be in a loving committed relationship? Why is your morality superior to those with differing points of view? If you support gay marriage, on what moral grounds can you oppose intra-familial marriage?
No one is arguing with you. We find your argument essentially trivial. I don't think liberals are arguing with you. I don't think anyone is arguing with you.
Yeah! Who cares about the rights of such a small group of people. Besides, they're icky!
Guest
Posted: Tue, Aug 9 2011, 12:03 am EDT
Post subject: Re: Plurality Of New Jersey Voters Thinks Gay Marriage Should Be Legal
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Your question was already answered in the novel-length reply so why re-ask?
Because he thinks he is being provacative, instead of merely dim.
Actually, the question I asked wasn't answered. I did hope the question would be provocative, as in "thought provoking". If you argue that any two consenting adults in a loving committed relationship should be allowed to marry, what would preclude me from marrying my sister?
No one argued that "any two consenting adults in a loving committed relationship should be allowed to marry" except you. That had nothing to do with the basis for why the state should not prevent gay marriage which is about discrimination. Family members are not a recognized class that can be discriminated against so if the state wishes to prevent incest marriages it can without contradicting its laws. In fact, since most states outlaw incest entirely it would be a contradiction for it to allow incest marriages.
If you're trying to start a new topic about whether incest should be legal, go for it, but marriage between family members is completely unrelated to gay marriage which is what this topic was about.
I think you're missing the difference between the moral argument vs. the legal justification. I'm not debating your legal justification, but I think it ignores the larger moral debate; which is important because laws tend to change as morality changes (See Lawrence v. Texas, 2003). Regarding the moral debate...
Opponents of gay marriage have argued that the purpose of marriage is to foster a stable family unit for the purposes of procreation and child rearing and that is why marriage should be limited to one man and one woman.
Proponents of gay marriage have argued that marriage is not necessarily about procreation and child rearing (both of which are essentially available to homosexuals anyway); rather marriage is a loving, committed relationship between two consenting adults, regardless of sexual orientation.
What I find interesting is that many of the social liberals who are so quick to dismiss the morality of social conservatives on issue of gay marriage as over-reaching and imposing, have no problem imposing their own morality on someone who wants to marry their sister, or brother, or father, or mother.
What is it to you? Why should you get to decide who can and can't be in a loving committed relationship? Why is your morality superior to those with differing points of view? If you support gay marriage, on what moral grounds can you oppose intra-familial marriage?
No one is arguing with you. We find your argument essentially trivial. I don't think liberals are arguing with you. I don't think anyone is arguing with you.
Almost Heaven
Posted: Mon, Aug 8 2011, 10:54 pm EDT
Post subject: Re: Plurality Of New Jersey Voters Thinks Gay Marriage Should Be Legal
I'm getting an idea for a new reality show-
Almost Heaven
- featuring a West Virginia family that's just a little too close.
Guest
Posted: Mon, Aug 8 2011, 9:28 pm EDT
Post subject: Re: Plurality Of New Jersey Voters Thinks Gay Marriage Should Be Legal
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Your question was already answered in the novel-length reply so why re-ask?
Because he thinks he is being provacative, instead of merely dim.
Actually, the question I asked wasn't answered. I did hope the question would be provocative, as in "thought provoking". If you argue that any two consenting adults in a loving committed relationship should be allowed to marry, what would preclude me from marrying my sister?
No one argued that "any two consenting adults in a loving committed relationship should be allowed to marry" except you. That had nothing to do with the basis for why the state should not prevent gay marriage which is about discrimination. Family members are not a recognized class that can be discriminated against so if the state wishes to prevent incest marriages it can without contradicting its laws. In fact, since most states outlaw incest entirely it would be a contradiction for it to allow incest marriages.
If you're trying to start a new topic about whether incest should be legal, go for it, but marriage between family members is completely unrelated to gay marriage which is what this topic was about.
I think you're missing the difference between the moral argument vs. the legal justification. I'm not debating your legal justification, but I think it ignores the larger moral debate; which is important because laws tend to change as morality changes (See Lawrence v. Texas, 2003). Regarding the moral debate...
Opponents of gay marriage have argued that the purpose of marriage is to foster a stable family unit for the purposes of procreation and child rearing and that is why marriage should be limited to one man and one woman.
Proponents of gay marriage have argued that marriage is not necessarily about procreation and child rearing (both of which are essentially available to homosexuals anyway); rather marriage is a loving, committed relationship between two consenting adults, regardless of sexual orientation.
What I find interesting is that many of the social liberals who are so quick to dismiss the morality of social conservatives on issue of gay marriage as over-reaching and imposing, have no problem imposing their own morality on someone who wants to marry their sister, or brother, or father, or mother.
What is it to you? Why should you get to decide who can and can't be in a loving committed relationship? Why is your morality superior to those with differing points of view? If you support gay marriage, on what moral grounds can you oppose intra-familial marriage?
Guest
Posted: Mon, Aug 8 2011, 6:27 pm EDT
Post subject: Re: Plurality Of New Jersey Voters Thinks Gay Marriage Should Be Legal
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
What if I want to marry my sister?
Thats not gay.
Marrying your Brother.........................NOW THATS GAY!
I assumed it was a woman marrying her sister, silly me.
Guest
Posted: Mon, Aug 8 2011, 5:20 pm EDT
Post subject: Re: Plurality Of New Jersey Voters Thinks Gay Marriage Should Be Legal
Guest wrote:
What if I want to marry my sister?
Thats not gay.
Marrying your Brother.........................NOW THATS GAY!
Guest
Posted: Sun, Aug 7 2011, 11:26 pm EDT
Post subject: Re: Plurality Of New Jersey Voters Thinks Gay Marriage Should Be Legal
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Your question was already answered in the novel-length reply so why re-ask?
Because he thinks he is being provacative, instead of merely dim.
Actually, the question I asked wasn't answered. I did hope the question would be provocative, as in "thought provoking". If you argue that any two consenting adults in a loving committed relationship should be allowed to marry, what would preclude me from marrying my sister?
No one argued that "any two consenting adults in a loving committed relationship should be allowed to marry" except you. That had nothing to do with the basis for why the state should not prevent gay marriage which is about discrimination. Family members are not a recognized class that can be discriminated against so if the state wishes to prevent incest marriages it can without contradicting its laws. In fact, since most states outlaw incest entirely it would be a contradiction for it to allow incest marriages.
If you're trying to start a new topic about whether incest should be legal, go for it, but marriage between family members is completely unrelated to gay marriage which is what this topic was about.
Guest
Posted: Sun, Aug 7 2011, 7:50 pm EDT
Post subject: Re: Plurality Of New Jersey Voters Thinks Gay Marriage Should Be Legal
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Guest wrote:
Your question was already answered in the novel-length reply so why re-ask?
Because he thinks he is being provacative, instead of merely dim.
Actually, the question I asked wasn't answered. I did hope the question would be provocative, as in "thought provoking". If you argue that any two consenting adults in a loving committed relationship should be allowed to marry, what would preclude me from marrying my sister?
Nothing, I suppose; if that's what you're in to. You might as well sleep with her while you're at it; as long as you're both consenting adults.
... And that's the story of how West Virginia came to support gay marriage. The End.