Author	Message
Guest	Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2011, 9:34 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? Guest wrote: Quote: Again, why do come in Cranbury think they are somehow unique in the state. That's a kind of arrogance. Cranbury is unique. It isn't arrogance, it is truth. This is a special place in many ways. The argument that "everybody else does it" may be relevant but it does not stand on its own merits. If you want Cranbury to be "just like everyplace else" you probably chose the wrong place to live. You can buy "everyplace else" for a lot less in almost all of the surrounding towns. Cranbury is a great place, but there is nothing magical about it when it comes to snow removal. We're just like everywhere else with a lot of neighbors that do the right thing and healthy minority who don't. For some things, that's good enough. When we're talking pubic safety we need an ordinance like most places to enforce against the bad apples. That doesn't make us any less special in general. There are a lot of interesting suggestions here about how the ordinance should work. If we could just get past the people still stuck in denial that we even have an issue we could focus on them.
Guest	Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2011, 9:17 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? Quote: Again, why do come in Cranbury think they are somehow unique in the state. That's a kind of arrogance. Cranbury is unique. It isn't arrogance, it is truth. This is a special place in many ways. The argument that "everybody else does it" may be relevant but it does not stand on its own merits. If you want Cranbury to be "just like everyplace else" you probably chose the wrong place to live. You can buy "everyplace else" for a lot less in almost all of the surrounding towns.
Guest	Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2011, 9:03 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? Guest wrote: Guest wrote: If we need a full fledged ordinance to guarantee the sidewalks along these major roads get shoveled, I guess we have to. Even though this means people on little used side streets have to shovel their walks as well. If no one in these untraveled courts cares they aren't shoveled, no one will complain, and if no one complains the police likely won't come out and write tickets there. This is how it works everywhere else, the police tend to enforce where necessary and not go around to 100 percent of houses after each storm. On the other hand if someone does complain in these courts, maybe some of the residents don't agree that its not needed. The ordinance should specify that a complaint is required to take action. No complaint, no offense.
Guest	Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2011, 8:31 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? Guest wrote: If we need a full fledged ordinance to guarantee the sidewalks along these major roads get shoveled, I guess we have to. Even though this means people on little used side streets have to shovel their walks as well. If no one in these untraveled courts cares they aren't shoveled, no one will complain, and if no one complains the police likely won't come out and write tickets there. This is how it works everywhere else, the police tend to enforce where necessary and not go around to 100 percent of houses after each storm. On the other hand if someone does complain in these courts, maybe some of the residents don't agree that its not needed.
Guest	Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2011, 5:35 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? let's put it to a vote in november way before the first snow whatever we do let's not get the snow police to ride around issuing tickets let's make it that there has to be a complaint
Guest	Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2011, 5:02 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? I must say I am conflicted on this. While in some neighborhoods are small cul-de-sacs with no foot traffic such an ordinance seems overkill. On the otherhand, this winter there were portions of sidewalk on Cranbury neck and Plainsboro road that were unshoveled. Kids use these sidewalks to get to school. Having to step out onto Cranbury Neck or Plainsboro Road is not an acceptable solution. If we need a full fledged ordinance to guarantee the sidewalks along these major roads get shoveled, I guess we have to. Even though this means people on little used side streets have to shovel their walks as well.
Guest	Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2011, 4:45 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? Guest wrote: Guest wrote: Guest wrote: i dont think we need it. neighborhoods know if it is needed, and generally self police. if someone is out of town, neighbors typically shovel their walk. is it perfect? no. good enough? yep. the risk of occasionally encountering snow is preferable to the discord arising from inconsistent application of the law our neighborhood doesn't shovel sidewalks either - but neighbors help out each other with driveways - this policy has worked good for years whatever happens here, let's not turn this into a police issue. should kick in only if compalint made Boy - finally some reason here. the reason so many neighborrhoods don 't shovel sidewalks is because that's the way they want it. Another useless regulation Sounds like we have a few zealots driving this discussion The problem with your logic is "neighborhoods" don't think as one entity. In Shadow Oaks, for example, there are plenty of people who are frustated with the minority of neighbors who refuse to shovel their sidewalks and want the rules to make walking with their kids safer. The fact that that minority justifies to themselves that the kids can walk in the street doesn't mean that is the way the neighborhood wants it, only them. If you are going to go by the majority, a majority of people do shovel. So it's the minority that need to get on board. And if they refuse, as they have, it sounds like a useful regulation, especially with public safety at issue. Again, why do come in Cranbury think they are somehow unique in the state. That's a kind of arrogance.
Guest	Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2011, 4:39 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? Guest wrote: Guest wrote: i dont think we need it. neighborhoods know if it is needed, and generally self police. if someone is out of town, neighbors typically shovel their walk. is it perfect? no. good enough? yep. the risk of occasionally encountering snow is preferable to the discord arising from inconsistent application of the law our neighborhood doesn't shovel sidewalks either - but neighbors help out each other with driveways - this policy has worked good for years whatever happens here, let's not turn this into a police issue. should kick in only if compalint made Boy - finally some reason here. the reason so many neighborrhoods don 't shovel sidewalks is because that's the way they want it. Another useless regulation Sounds like we have a few zealots driving this discussion
Guest	Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2011, 4:11 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? Guest wrote: Guest wrote: i dont think we need it. neighborhoods know if it is needed, and generally self police. if someone is out of town, neighbors typically shovel their walk. is it perfect? no. good enough? yep. the risk of occasionally encountering snow is preferable to the discord arising from inconsistent application of the law our neighborhood doesn't shovel sidewalks either - but neighbors help out each other with driveways - this policy has worked good for years whatever happens here, let's not turn this into a police issue. should kick in only if compalint made I think this is how the sidewalks will work too. We have people who shovel and spouses bring out hot chocolate, kids are also playing or helping. So I don't think being "forced" to do the right thing will create a huge hardship. I would like to thank the TC for discussing this and not saying this is too controversial so we'll ignore it.
Guest	Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2011, 4:06 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? Guest wrote: i dont think we need it. neighborhoods know if it is needed, and generally self police. if someone is out of town, neighbors typically shovel their walk. is it perfect? no. good enough? yep. the risk of occasionally encountering snow is preferable to the discord arising from inconsistent application of the law Self-policing is not working which is why this issue came up in the first place. If almost everyone was doing the right thing it wouldn't be an issue. Clearly some people disagree that it is "good enough" at the moment and are concerned with public safety. Most NJ municipalities have similar ordinanes without significant "discord arising from inconsistent application of the law." It is by nature a spot enforced law, like a vast majority of local ordinances and traffic laws, etc. Actually, laws that are not spot enforced are the exceptions.
Guest	Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2011, 2:49 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? Guest wrote: i dont think we need it. neighborhoods know if it is needed, and generally self police. if someone is out of town, neighbors typically shovel their walk. is it perfect? no. good enough? yep. the risk of occasionally encountering snow is preferable to the discord arising from inconsistent application of the law our neighborhood doesn't shovel sidewalks either - but neighbors help out each other with driveways - this policy has worked good for years whatever happens here, let's not turn this into a police issue. should kick in only if compalint made
Guest	Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2011, 1:33 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? i dont think we need it. neighborhoods know if it is needed, and generally self police. if someone is out of town, neighbors typically shovel their walk. is it perfect? no. good enough? yep. the risk of occasionally encountering snow is preferable to the discord arising from inconsistent application of the law
Guest	Posted: Sat, Jun 4 2011, 11:47 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? Guest wrote: Guest wrote: I think the suggestion to have it be a minimum of 48 hours instead of 24 is a reasonable one. While well intentioned, I think the various suggestions to have public works do it or the Township have to get involved administratively or hire private contractors is going to be unnecessarily complex, take up resource time and potentially add liability to the Township as a previous poster noted. The liability is an interesting point. I'd like to see our township attorney weigh in on that issue. If there is no real risk of increased liability, I would prefer the township administer the program, even if they choose to sub it out to a private company. A fine won't address the immediate safety concerns as well as shoveling and billing to property owner. However, if you leave the decision to shovel to private contractors, you are more likely to get hyper-aggressive enforcement, and I'm not sure this is the goal. In any case, I think it is important that any action (fine or service/bill) come as a result of a resident complaint. I agree. If no one cares enough to complain about it, then why bother.
Guest	Posted: Sat, Jun 4 2011, 11:40 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? Guest wrote: I think the suggestion to have it be a minimum of 48 hours instead of 24 is a reasonable one. While well intentioned, I think the various suggestions to have public works do it or the Township have to get involved administratively or hire private contractors is going to be unnecessarily complex, take up resource time and potentially add liability to the Township as a previous poster noted. The liability is an interesting point. I'd like to see our township attorney weigh in on that issue. If there is no real risk of increased liability, I would prefer the township administer the program, even if they choose to sub it out to a private company. A fine won't address the immediate safety concerns as well as shoveling and billing to property owner. However, if you leave the decision to shovel to private contractors, you are more likely to get hyper-aggressive enforcement, and I'm not sure this is the goal. In any case, I think it is important that any action (fine or service/bill) come as a result of a resident complaint.
Guest	Posted: Sat, Jun 4 2011, 11:20 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? I think the suggestion to have it be a minimum of 48 hours instead of 24 is a reasonable one. While well intentioned, I think the various suggestions to have public works do it or the Township have to get involved administratively or hire private contractors is going to be unnecessarily complex, take up resource time and potentially add liability to the Township as a previous poster noted.
Guest	Posted: Sat, Jun 4 2011, 11:20 pm EDT    Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? Guest wrote: Guest wrote: Guest wrote: Guest wrote: The proposal is that you are snowed in at Grandma's house the day after Christmas. You were planning to be there 48 hours not 5 days. How would one "make arrangements" It's not rocket science. You keep an eye on the weather and make arrangements with a neighbor or service before you go away during a winter trip. People do it all the time. Even in Cranbury now there are plenty of people who are responsible enough neighbors that they are doing this without the ordinance. Actually, I did get snowed in this Christmas. Both neighbors were also out of town and the little old lady across the street is in her 80's. It may not be rocket science, but it was a real problem. Of course I realize that in your roll as ruler of time space and dimension such problems are trivial. Right and Cranbury is someone unique in the universe, so the problems every other Township's citizens manage to deal with are somehow insurmountable here. You really must be conceited. Yes oh great one I must be conceited.